How to Learn with Stephen Robles

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[00:00:00] Ed Catmull: You're not your idea. You're trying to solve a problem. And I wrote in the book about failure for instance, and I realized actually at picture, we don't typically even use the language of failure. It's does it work? Does it not work? And you, you try something and if it doesn't work, then you're back into solving it.

But you don't say it failed, you just said it doesn't work. Right. And there's an emotional difference between those.

[00:00:34] Stephen Robles: There are a few categories where I can name My favorite thing. Without hesitation movies, I would need a top 10. TV shows probably top five, but when it comes to books, there is one that stands above the rest for me. I just began leading a small creative team in Tampa, Florida when I picked up the book Creativity Inc.

I already loved Pixar films and being a New York Times bestseller, I thought it would be a great book to help me on my creative journey. Little did I know this book would change how I think about creativity, shape, how I led creative teams, and would become the first book I recommend to anyone trying to foster a healthy work environment.

Ed Kamal is the co-founder of Pixar, and along with Amy Wallace authored this incredible journey through Pixar's History, offering a behind the scenes look at how the stories are made. And now almost 10 years after reading it, I had the opportunity to interview Ed. During the interview, he shares thoughts on transparency in the workplace, how to foster creativity, and what holds teams back from their best work.

I hope you enjoyed this interview with Ed Kaman.

Hey Kael, thanks so much for being here. You're the author of probably my favorite book. Creativity Inc. Shared with so many people. Thank you so much for being here for the interview. And as you emailed me, you said you just got back from a silent retreat and I would love to know more about that if that's something you do regularly and the benefits of that.

So tell me about it.

[00:01:55] Ed Catmull: Well, uh, this is a month long side retreat and most people, when you talk about a secretary, it's like, It's too scary of an ocean. Like I can't imagine doing that for a month. Most of 'em can't even think of doing it for a week or 10 days. Right. Or a few hours. I know. But it's very interesting because, uh, when you start with something less smaller like a week, what you are doing is you are, you do learn that that voice was just as going all the time in your head running up.

Right? Your flaps are going. All different directions that you actually learn to quiet that voice. Mm-hmm. And then you learn that that voice is not you. Mm-hmm. Like the tool that we have for thinking there's nothing, nothing wrong with it. There is a problem with our runaway voice, and that is that we are built to respond to our environment around us.

Like if there's danger, real danger, then we have a re a cumulative reaction in our body. Like the adrenaline kicks in, fight or flight. And one of the interesting things about us is that if we imagine something that's dangerous, we can have the same reaction. So part of the stress that's damaging to people is believing what they're making up.

Mm-hmm. And, and that's part of meditation is, is to, to actually get that voice to actually stop for a while. And, and what you learn is actually, it's not harmful to have it stop you. You're still, you. And then you're more aware of other things about you in your thought, but it's a different kind of thing.

Mm-hmm. And it makes it easier to deal with and recognize things that. Are being imagined that it's better because you could actually use your imagination in better ways, but you know the difference between what you've made up and what you are perceiving around

[00:03:46] Stephen Robles: you. That's so powerful. I've done a lot of reading a study on anxiety and those feelings with a family member having dealt with it, and I love this analogy of a lot of times we have thoughts flying through our heads.

It's almost like cars on a highway. And so often we try to step in front and stop the feelings or stop the thoughts and end up getting run over by them, and it never really ends well. And it's more of being able to note what is not me? What are thoughts that I can allow to pass and get back to kind of who I am?

You know, what's actually in there? And I'm so curious how you feel this. Kind of thinking plays into creativity because one of the things I love in your book is when you're on a creative team or you're working with creative people, so often we associate ourselves with our ideas. And so if we have a good, I, you know, an idea for a movie or for a pitch for a story, if you're a journalist, and so often we get so attached to those ideas, when they get struck down, it feels like someone is striking us down as a person.

How do you begin to teach people to separate themselves from their ideas so they're able to take feedback a little better?

[00:04:51] Ed Catmull: That's a very interesting question and an important one because I've been in meetings and the natural thing for most people is that they feel that if they suggest something and it's accepted by the others is a good idea, then that's a validation and they feel good about it.

Right? And if it's rejected, they feel bad. So this not gets in the way of thinking because. If I come up with an idea, what's gonna be the reaction to it? And if I'm with people who are actually pretty experienced and pretty powerful, then I can be intimidated or afraid to make the suggestion because of the.

Either the, the real consequences or the perceived consequences. Now, if you were with a group of people, there is this dynamic that's going on mm-hmm. That people naturally feel. And if you are presenting something, an idea in front of a group, and you, you, you know, the idea doesn't work. And the reason you're having the meeting is to help solve the problems.

But you feel vulnerable. So you have both sides of this. Like you are really presenting something and you feel vulnerable, or you're just making suggestions and you're worried about how it's going to be received. Or there are some people actually trying to show up and all sorts of dynamics, human dynamics that are frankly getting in the way.

In the ideal situation is that the dynamics of the room is such that. When somebody says something, it's just an idea, and if it works because you're, you're trying to solve a problem, you're not trying to show off, you're just trying to solve a problem, and if it adds something to it, then fine. Then that it, if smooth the discussion and if it doesn't work, it's okay.

They're not really judging you, they're just looking for some solution of a problem. And pretty much everybody knows that not every idea that suggests is gonna solve the problem. This isn't about judging people. Right? Well, there's this, the tricky balance, but it, the truth is, if somebody offers, let's say, hundreds of ideas in a meeting, then at some point they're like, they're hogging the space.

Mm-hmm. Yes. So like, yeah, that's the right thing to do. So what is the balance? I mean, if this is a, a tricky emotional. Thing for people to do and the ideal, ideal circumstances, you're focused on the problem, right? You put up an idea to help solve the problem, but the idea you suggest is not you. It's an idea that you had, but it's not you.

If it works good, if it doesn't work, that's okay too because not that idea. And I'm not attached to it right now. Not all meetings work that successfully. Right. I would say in general at Pixar, most of the meetings actually work pretty well because people have learned about this process. You're not your idea.

You're trying to solve a problem. And they wrote in the book about failure, for instance, and they realized actually, At picture, we don't typically even use the language of failure. Mm-hmm. It's, does it work? Does it not work? And you, you try something and if it doesn't work, then you're back into solving it.

But you don't say it failed, you just said it doesn't work. Right. And there's an emotional difference between those. Right.

[00:07:55] Stephen Robles: But, and clearly, Throughout the book, you talk about the culture that you had to cultivate and build at Pixar, I think to, you know, foster that kind of environment. But I know I have been in several office environments and some on some creative teams where that is just not the case.

And I think one of it is another chapter in the book where you talk about honesty and candor. And I love this quote where you say, if there is more truth in the hallways than in meetings, you have a problem. And I think that is so true in so many organizations where people do not have the trust in the organization or their team where they can be candid because they feel like.

Maybe it'll be risk for their job or, or they'll be struck down. And I'm curious how you feel the balance is between candor, honesty, and these kinds of creative environments. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Ray Dalio, his principles and radical transparency methodology. Yeah. But you know, my uncle actually works at Bridgewater Associates and he says some people can't even last six months in that kind of raw, transparent environment with that much honesty.

So how do you find balance between that candor, honesty, and trust? Well,

[00:08:57] Ed Catmull: the mean, there's several parts to that. One of 'em is, The reason that I use the word candor is that honesty is if a highly successful word to use, because the opposite of honesty is dishonest.

[00:09:09] Stephen Robles: There's a moral implication.

[00:09:11] Ed Catmull: Yeah. So essentially, well, okay.

I would never want to be dishonest. But that's actually not the issue. That's why I said, okay, candor's probably the better word. Because we do recognize that often people are not candid. Mm. All right. So that doesn't carry the baggage of being dishonest. That's the whole reason for it. Right. But in fact, most of the, the ideas about it have to do with.

The emotional things that go along with it, but I even have a problem with the notion of radical transparency. Alright? The, the, the issue is you really want to have it so that you can be honest and with each other and candid about problems and issues, but at the same time, you are dealing with people who've got this.

The, these emotional feelings they grow up with and they're just part of who they are. Mm-hmm. And some of these people have got these fears and actually have, they can make great contributions, but this stuff does get in the way. The real question is, since you wanna get to the point where everybody is completely open with each other and they say what they think, So we would say, okay, you need to say what you think, and it's really important and it's important that you listen to it.

All right? So then you have to go to the next thing is, okay, why wouldn't it happen? Mm-hmm. Because everybody would agree. It's important to be honest about what you've got. So rather than saying, wow, we're, we're gonna be brutally honest, like, I don't think that's the question we're really trying to get at is why aren't people saying what they think?

Because there are real reasons. So if I look at, uh, let's say a couple different cases, lemme take. Uh, Steve Jobs is as an example. So forget the early years of, of Steve because he changed dramatically. Hmm. And I, I think what people focus on, that's the wrong thing because he actually, when he changed, because he learned so much along the way, that his way of dealing with people did change.

But picture went public at one time and we had a board of directors and Steve wanted people to be, uh, challenging to him. They wanted to, to argue with him. Not in the negative sense than the fact that they were raising the problems and they had enough personal strength to raise the problems they saw.

Mm-hmm. And there are two board members who actually weren't doing that. So he took them off the board of directors. He wasn't interested in somebody that was trying to agree with him. And, uh, that principle is, is not actually easy to understand. There's a book recently written about, uh, the history of the iPhone and the book was called The One Device and it was really good except for, uh, two things.

One is he had this thing sort of beginning at the end where he said, you know, Steve kind of claimed credit for everything and. I thought, well, no, he didn't, that this wasn't true. It was like an unnecessary bracket. But there was another thing which was he missed and almost everybody misses. There were times, uh, throughout Apple's history and, and no, we'll talk about the iPhone.

Steve knew that there was, uh, a limit to what was gonna happen with laptops or desktop computers. And obviously Apple had Corona dramatic and they'd make huge changes. Everybody else also knew they were reaching the limit, so he was, he's willing to say, okay, the business model will change. And he thought that.

iPads were probably gonna be the place to go. And his engineers didn't agree. And so they argued with him and they convinced him. And so he switched over to the phone as the entry point. And the other was the engineer said, we need to open the apps. And you may recall that when the iPhone came out, it was closed, did not have an app store.

Within a few months, um, as they had these discussions and stuff found to come in, they convinced him that no, it needs to open up. And so one year later, They, they hadn't opened it up. Right. The thing that dismissed there is like, the reason this happened was is Steve had a relationship with people so they could disagree with him, and he wanted the people around him who knew how to do that.

It sounds like

[00:13:12] Stephen Robles: it needs to be a top down leadership. Really instilling that in the culture.

[00:13:16] Ed Catmull: Well, he, the thing is, is that Steve recognized that he had such a powerful personality that he could sometimes screw up the room. So he wanted the people around who knew how to operate and had enough strength to push back because he needed the pushback because he recognized that there's no value in being rawly.

So that concept of, okay, how do we get people to push back was an important thing for them. At at, at Pixar we're making films and so we have. Meetings where we evaluate a film and when we present them to the other, uh, creative leaders and we, we call, these are the brain trust meetings. Mm-hmm. We have some principles and you know, one of 'em is like, this is peer to peer.

Like in this room we're talking as filmmakers to each other and it's not a hierarchical thing. In fact, we worked really hard to keep power out of the room. Now the interesting thing is there really are some people with power, either because of great inte inte skills or the, or actual power to make things happen.

Mm-hmm. So the rule is they're supposed to be quiet for the first 15 minutes. Oh, interesting. Okay. Now, and the reason is, If a powerful person speaks, then they're setting the tone for the discussion. Well, that's not very useful actually. So what they do is they, they wait 15 minutes and then they enter the discussion.

Mm-hmm. And then when they enter it, the, the relationship is now entirely different. Mm-hmm. Now our purpose is to get to like the transparency and really get to the truth. But saying we want that actually could be, you know, intimidating to people and be counterproductive. That's why I don't really like the term all that much.

Mm-hmm. I know what the goal is. Right, right. Good. But do we know the personalities of the people and how we get the best out of it? Right. And the answer frequently is no. Hmm. Or if you, this happens in almost every company is. Something new has happened. It might be bad news or whatever. And so you go to a meeting and the information is given to, let's say, the leader who's in the room.

Mm-hmm. And for many of those leaders, there's this notion of, why didn't I know about this before the meeting? Mm-hmm. Like almost like a sign of disrespect for not knowing, right. This leads people to have pre-meetings or somebody's gotta go and explaining things. To the leader. What's the purpose of the meetings, Anne?

But the thing was, it's actually a message that's given to people is the sign of respect is you need to let me know ahead of time what's going to happen. That's intriguing. Waste of time.

[00:15:48] Stephen Robles: I've been in so many pre pre-meetings. I I'm glad you said that. Well, I mean,

[00:15:52] Ed Catmull: but it happens all the time. So, and as you like, oh, we need radical transparency, but actually they're giving a message of, the way you get radical transparency is you make sure.

The things happen in a sort in a certain order, right? Which actually stops the free flow of information and induces right. Sort of a structure in there, in a way which gets which, which is

[00:16:12] Stephen Robles: harmful. So I wanna get back to creativity and originality because you talk about in the book, That, and I'm quoting, I believe to my core that everybody has the potential to be creative.

Whatever form that creativity takes and that to encourage such development is a noble thing. And you know, we, I think we live in a time now, especially with like social media influencers and things like that where people call themselves a creative. Which I don't think is a noun, but it's used as such. So, you know, we've kind of separated into creatives and non creatives.

But I, I appreciate your take because I do feel, you know, even someone who is working with their hands or doing construction, there's still creativity to be had. Whether it's problem solving, like you said, you know, the way to get around, uh, the idea being attached to you is, let's just solve the problem.

So what do you tell people if they think that they are not creative? Or they just feel like they're not a creative person? How do you encourage them to say no? Actually, everyone has an element of creativity in them. I

[00:17:12] Ed Catmull: think the way to think about it, because the, the, I think from a cultural point of view, people would say obviously that the artistic expression, whether it's film or writing, is a creative process like culture.

Like that's an easy thing. And I think they would say, oh, when people are coming up with new products, that's a creative thing. So most people would include that in it. So yeah, that's easy. But I do feel very strongly that creativity is actually a, a broad concept is both expression and it is problem solving.

Mm-hmm. Now, there are people who even good about problem or solving problems in their life. So if, if you, but if you think about it in broad terms that Okay, creativity is actually a really broad concept. So then the question is, if people aren't creative in. One of these senses, it's like, well, well, why not?

And what do we do to help them? That's how do we unleash it? Mm. Because the question should be what are the barriers to somebody being creative in that broad sense? And there are barriers. And companies, for instance, regardless of what they say, will actually have hierarchy or a class structure in there.

And regardless of what they say, they. They put those things in place and they actually block people from solving problems and coming up with creative solutions. And it is basically built into the cultures. They're there. Um, likewise in, you know, in in families and so forth, there can be things that happen that actually block people.

So the issue for us is, okay, if this is true, which I deeply believe, then. What do we do to enable people to, and create an environment where they feel safe? They don't feel put in a corner. You know, they're, they're a judge. They're just like, you know, given the opportunity and a lot, and we free them up.

And is it, but we have to understand that. We have to think about that. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I think a lot of companies have like a class stretcher. Like the engineers are more important than this group, or mm-hmm. Like some group is more important. And at Pixar, for instance, we worked very hard right from the beginning to make sure that the artists and the engineers were of equal status.

But at the end of Choice Row, we realized that, oh, a new group we brought in, you know, felt like they were second class. Mm. And it, it wasn't imaginary. It's like the artists and the, the software of people thought they were more like sand in the gears. So that was a problem. So by the next film, we fixed it, but it was only after we saw it.

And so then, By solve it. What I mean is by the end of the next film was that the other people which were with the, the filmmakers and the software people did think that the people working on managing the process were world class and they were thankful for them. Hmm. So that relationship changed. Yeah.

And we did focus on it, but I would say there'd been a couple times in pictures history when. Like the A cloth church emerge typically because the new group comes in, they will think it's not their place to say they're, there's, you know, some problem they've got. And that can be a whole class of people.

And then some point like bubbles up because somebody finally says something and then you discover that, oh, there's this whole group of people that feels like they're they're second class. Mm-hmm. And we're looking for it and we still miss it. Yeah. So, yeah. Then you gotta have this process of fixing it.

Right. And, and so the issue with, with any group is how do you make it so that you value everybody? Mm. And, and, and for me it is a value proposition. If, if we are doing this alone, we require everybody to do something good. And, you know, whether it's finance or marketing or sales or making or manufacturing, these are all people of.

Of value and we should think of 'em as that way. And, and there's a, there's a phrase that you've heard of in, in a lot of companies that's like, our greatest assets go home at night. That's meant to say that our people are valuable. Right. And I think we're calling our people assets.

[00:21:18] Stephen Robles: It's faulty premise.

It's not good.

[00:21:20] Ed Catmull: It's like, yeah, I'd say you're saying they're important, but they're all individual human beings with. Aspirations and goals and desires, and they're all different from each other. Yeah. Um, and our really, our folks should be how do we value people? And the people think they're valued and they're listened to.

Then they do more. I mean, yeah, they're released. Yeah. And, and our job really, in terms of the management side is to tech people feel like they're listened to. Most people know that. This isn't a, like, you don't make a movie by committee. Somebody has to make a decision and the decision, oh, it doesn't always go their way, but they do wanna know that they're heard.

Yeah. When you actually make it so that they're heard, then they're willing to think about things and knowing that saying something, even if it's not accepted, uh, is still good. So they then feel safer about something and more valued.

[00:22:15] Stephen Robles: That's good. One more on creativity. I'm curious, your thoughts is you have lived your career through technology as it went from computers to phones, and now just the ubiquity of social media when it comes to originality and creativity.

I recently read a book called Stolen Focus and just how much these screens and social media has maybe taken away our ability to either focus or be creative. What is your take on kind of social media, especially for the younger generation? Do you feel like it's hindering creativity and originality? I see great stuff on there.

You know, I will look on social media and there's people being very creative, very funny, but I wonder if those who ob, you know, watch it more than create it, how it's affecting them. What are your thoughts on that? Um, it's, it's

[00:22:57] Ed Catmull: an important question because you've got, you know, millions of people and, uh, the, the entry point for allowing people to do something in Rusha, Clevers.

It's easier. That is, you can buy the equipment, well, it's your phone. There's editing capabilities and so forth. So the ability to put together the tools to create something new is actually more, more ubiquitous. Right. But the number of people who actually produce the content that people watch is still pretty small, right?

Relatively speaking. So what's the implication for. The other people who actually don't get noticed because they might think, oh, I want to be one of the, a social influencer. Well, okay, does that, let's say maturely different than like people go to school and they've got aspirations to be very good in baseball or basketball, and then go to college, then become a, a, uh, uh, professional athlete.

Mm-hmm. So it happens to people, but the number who actually get there is. Is minuscule. Right. Okay. So what about the people who actually spent their lives trying to do that, but they actually weren't at that level. And because I'm not very athletic, I figured this out pretty early on that that when I was a little kid and I thought about this, I did realize, oh, okay, that's how only gonna put my time in.

Mm-hmm. But I do know this phenomenon that people would like to be filmmakers or they wanna be actors. I mean, they're things they want. But the number of people actually get to that is very small. If you went down to Hollywood, then there are a lot of screenplay writers who are working in restaurants hoping to get noticed and a lot of actors Right, hoping get noticed.

So then there's this, the, the general question come back to what you're saying is what's the impact for the people who are essentially the consumers of it and the amount of time that spend on it. And what are the things in their lives that are, are going to make meaning, and these there gonna be a problem with.

It's now so accessible and it's a, it's a legitimate issue and it's a question. And right now we know in the, in the world, we've got a number of social. Issues and problems. We've got a lot of serious problems. Personally, I think that one of the challenges of our time is to deal with these problems and can we use our creativity to address problems, which are frankly almost existential.

I don't actually haven't realized this to it because really it's gonna take somebody else to solve this. And that we just hope that we solve them in time. Mm-hmm. I do know that right now, if you look at chat, g p t, the, uh, it is a much bigger game changer than people are even aware of. But the people are close to us saying, oh, this is a gigantic change, this coming, and how do they get their head around it?

Are you

[00:25:42] Stephen Robles: excited for ai? Or like, how, what are your general feelings about it? Because it's, I mean, big now like you're saying. It's a big deal. Well, it

[00:25:49] Ed Catmull: was interesting. It's like with the, uh, the internet, because the internet was one of those things where when it first started to come out, and incidentally, the University of Utah was the fourth node on the, the net.

It was just put together by Harpa. So, and that's why went at school. Hmm. For me, it's like, okay, I grew up with this right, and it, but finally it became really big. And when, uh, essentially Netscape came in, addressed some of the security issues, and then Microsoft realized the, the. The significance of it and the existential threat to them.

And so they moved on it with their, um, browser they give away for free. But in people talking about it, they would say, this is a game changer. Which it was. But they're putting in terms of we're making information ubiquitous and it's a democratization of information. Right. So that was what they were saying at the time.

Now, in fact, that happened. But then the question is the things that they didn't expect, which were the bad actors in it, and the other was the way they figured out monetization. That the monetization, the selling, the ads was actually going to degrade the experience. Do you know that when they were originally talking about the positive things and the positive things actually did happen?

Yeah, but the negative things happen too. So with every one of these waves, there's that excitement that comes with the, the positive things. And at the same time, and we've been through this I times to say, well, there are people waiting in the wings to use it either for the business models and I don't. I, I'm not saying it's a negative sense, they've got a survive company, but it actually puts a layer of requirements that they put on in order, in order to survive as, as a company, right?

And then the others, there're there really are genuine, bad actors, um, in different senses, including either governments or in some cases it's wrong doers or people trying to get stuff. So now you look at these language models that are coming out and what they're being used for, go. What's the implication for that?

Say, we've may do this enough to know that there are some very significant things that are coming and the table don't even realize how big this is. Like it's one of the biggest waves this rolling through. It's, I mean, it is gigantic. Yeah. But at the same time, you can say, Okay. This is also an opportunity for problems too.

And at this point, like, I don't know what's gonna happen, but it's like other thing with, with Moore's law and of, of course these other things like the internet, they, they, they follow a different curve of their rate of the sense. Right. And it's less predictable. But the outcome in all these cases was highly unpredictable.

Mm-hmm. And so that's what we've got. How do we have the people who've got like the, the, the moral and ethical of courage to build something around it, but also help address the problems and get ahead of them. Yeah. And that's our creative challenge for today.

[00:28:43] Stephen Robles: We need some creative people working on

[00:28:45] Ed Catmull: this.

Yes. They and for sure. And they, and they will be. Yeah. But I just, I like the notion, and, and companies cha vary in their values. Mm-hmm. One of the things that Steve got early on was they wanted to, and they, they wanted to build a notion of protecting the customer. For the iOS. And so Apple has the reputation as the one that more likely to be careful with your data.

Right. But actually I wish a lot more companies are that way. You really want everything to have it. And some companies are, and there's like, there are things now that are in place and, and certain regulations are coming along and they are to protect us. Yeah. They may be a pain in the ass for some companies to implement.

Right. You want the, the protections. Yeah, but the opportunities for creativity are very high in the in, in this field. But again, the general case is how do we solve the problem and how do we make it safe? Right? And so the come back to this thing is how do we make it safe for other people? And if we make it safe for other people to suggest or do things and not feel a judge, then uh, we enable them to do something.

And I don't even know what it is, but that's okay. Yeah, I just wanna enable people.

[00:30:02] Stephen Robles: Quick aside right here. One of the questions I'm about to ask Ed is about his favorite Pixar movie. He does name one, but also mentions Andrew Stanton and Pete Doctor, their movie repertoire, including Wally. Finding Nemo up and Toy Story four, just to name a few. I'll put their I M D B profiles in the show notes.

All right. Back to the interview.

Okay, well, to finish up, I would love to do a lightning round of questions. If you were stuck on a desert island and could only have one Pixar movie with you. To watch on repeat. What Pixar movie would it be? Uh,

[00:30:35] Ed Catmull: I, I, I can't answer that. I mean, to me they're like, they're four that I really like, but I'll take four.

I'll take four. Well, I'm in its own. I have a bias thing because they're, they're, they're tuned by watching the people make them. Mm-hmm. That's good. So I can't look at them the way the other people can. Okay. But I, we, I will say first is that I'm rat. Awe. Besides being great movie, um, I'll represents several things to me.

One of them is that you would fail The elevator test in a lot of companies are the, the notion of the elevator test is, can you make a pitch so concise that you can convince somebody in a short period of time to right, give some money to a, pay attention to it. And with about a third of our fellas, they would fail the elevator test.

I think that's cool. That's awesome. Yes. Oh, and that one wouldn't wood. In fact, this doesn't a matter of a five minute pitch or a five day pitch, or a five week pitch. Right. It's just an unlikely idea. And the fact that they pulled the off is great. And, and we did that. Yeah. And, and basically it's like, uh, I think and Stanton's films and, uh, and Pete Doctor.

Mm. You know, like I just, you know, the films they come out with. But, but even recently, I, I'm, I'm proud of like, so recent's films we did, uh, Coco. Yeah. And it's like, that was a, A great film that that crew and then Pete Un anchor really tried to capture the essence of culture. Mm-hmm. So each one, there's like, there's a depth that comes from the culture because they're trying to careful about it as well as to draw from their own emotions.

Yeah. So means as I go through each one, it's like, Okay. They all have a story behind them. It's a, it's one of the reasons, but I can't say, here's a favor one. Sure. I, you know, I can look at each one and say, oh, actually everybody, like, about it, you know, in some cases like, oh, we could have done a little better.

Uh, this is what we should have done. A little bit different to do better. Sure. Um, but yeah, this, it's like looking at, at you, like your children in a different way because Right. You raised them and anyway. No, that's good. This is lightning and I can wander easily. Go ahead.

[00:32:42] Stephen Robles: No, that's good. Outside of Disney and Pixar movies, what kind of movies do you enjoy?

Or do you have any like guilty pleasure movies, like disaster movies that you enjoy watching? Or where else do you like, what else do you like to watch?

[00:32:53] Ed Catmull: Well, I mean, there are, there are a variety. I don't have a particular thing, I, I don't like films actually in general. Caused a lot of, uh, anxiety in me.

Yeah, for sure. So there are some great films that like, if they say, oh no, actually this one might be really anxious. Yeah, yeah. So I, I don't do that. Yeah. Um, I don't watch horror movies. Same, uh, the exceptions are if they're, They're comedic horror movies, which are okay if they do a good job. And I like movies that, that surprise me.

Mm-hmm. Um, like I don't know exactly where they're going. It did, I mean, I, the film of ev everything everywhere, all at lunch, whatever it's called. Yeah. That, that was it. Really enjoyed that film. Yeah. Yeah. Surprising. And because it wasn't clear exactly where it's going. Right. And like, okay, what's it about?

And. Because it isn't like other multiverse things like, okay, this is Ashley. Right. It's got, it's something to it. So in that, yeah, it was like, it's a surprising film. I like the right, the surprises.

[00:33:48] Stephen Robles: Well, okay. Final question. Where do you look for inspiration? What, is it a place you go? Is it a thing you do?

Where do you find that inspiration is cultivated? When you do it?

[00:34:00] Ed Catmull: You know it. That's a hard answer, Wayne. One of the things was, Because I've heard people say they're bored. I've never been bored in my life. Mm-hmm. I don't even know what it's like to be boric. Oh, this is interesting. That's interesting. I could go down.

I, for me it's like, okay, life is a, a worn rabbit holes and you can keep going down them forever. Or it's the mystery house where you go and you explore the room and there are these doors in behind the dorm. You find another bigger

[00:34:26] Stephen Robles: one. And maybe finding the, the inspiration in just everyday. Mundane life.

Some people would say mundane, but it's it's everywhere kind of thing. Yeah, it's everywhere. Well, ed Kael, thanks so much for, for joining me in this interview. I appreciate you taking the time.

[00:34:39] Ed Catmull: All right. Thank you, Steven. I enjoyed it.

[00:34:49] Stephen Robles: Thanks for joining me on this first episode of How to Learn. I was hoping to play a clip from my next guest, but to be honest, I don't have one yet for that. I would love to hear from you listening right now. If you have great potential guest names that are in the creative space and who have a passion for teaching others, I'd love to hear about them.

You can email me directly. That would be in the show notes as well. Also, it would help if you gave the show a five star rating in your podcast app of Choice. And would really appreciate if you went over to Apple Podcast and did it there. In today's show notes, you'll also find my newsletter where you can sign up and get notified of any new podcast or videos that I create.

I hope you enjoyed this interview with Ed Kamel and you can find links to Creativity Inc. My favorite book in the show notes as well. Thanks for listening.